Sorry Brian, Jean, and DVP, Banks Did Not Key-Punch 1963 P.O. Money Orders

Updated November 19, 2015:

https://www.computer.org/csdl/proceedings/afips/1966/5068/00/50680479.pdf
(Lance Payette brought this to my attention, today. "File Locator Numbers - See Explanation, below:)

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1964&dat=19620623&id=2PQiAAAAIBAJ...

"..and two receipt stubs.." Postal Inspector Harry D. Holmes claimed he had one of the two stubs. Why is tbe Holmes stub not listed by the WC?

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=22434
Rectangular and round punch codes on the Hidell money order explained.
Started by Sandy Larsen,
.....LNers may want people to believe that these holes are punched when the check is being processed, and that this somehow signifies that the money order was actually cashed. But that is simply not true. The holes merely duplicate what is printed on the front of the money order and has nothing to do with clearing of the check. The holes are punched at the same time the money order number is printed, before the money orders are even issued to post offices....

1962 bid specs for 1963 P.O. money order cards
B-149480: Sep 26, 1962
http://www.gao.gov/products/B-149480#mt=e-report

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=965&dat=19510628&id=iO8kAAAAIBAJ&...

Why was the alleged original Klein's Sporting Goods purchase money order located in Washington and not returned to the issuing region?
First (top) article image above, left column, "both prints and punches code in the amount of money on the money order, itself...."
The first circle punch hole on the right side of the M.O. = zero,
the second = two, the third = one, the fourth= four, and the fifth circle= 5 !

(What part of the warning, "Do not spindle, fold, or mutilate, do you not comprehend"?)

https://www.computer.org/csdl/proceedings/afips/1966/5068/00/50680479.pdf



Can anyone earnestly make a case that the M.O. in the above image is a match for the 1951 M.O. in the article image, and does not display the newer features identical to those described in the 1962 (see top image, left column) article?

The Post Office sales of key-punched at purchase point money orders ceased by Spring, 1973.

PROCEDURES FOR PROCESSING POSTAL MONEY ...
tfm.fiscal.treasury.gov/.../c700....
United States Department of the Treasury
.........Section 7020 -General Information And Format.......
... There are a number of outstanding "punch card" postal money orders that were issued prior to the introduction of paper style postal money orders in the spring of 1973, which bear the ABA routing number 0000-01 19. These money orders have a commercial life of 20 years. Processing instructions for the "punch card" postal money orders are in II TFM 4-7070 of these instructions......
Federal Reserve Bank of New York Circular Series - Fraser
https://fraser.stlouisfed.org/docs/historical/ny%20circulars/1966_05803.pdf
FEDERAL RESERVE BANK ... in the Second Federal Reserve District: ... Accordingly, no additional holes should be punched in the money orders, no error-.

Updated on November 15, 2015:
I have interspersed this new research, mostly document links/images, with a presentation of older research and analysis/claims.:

https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?6432-Armstrong-Of-Covert-Ops-Fake-Marines-of-Classifieds-of-Cabbages-and-Kings&p=104555#post104555
Bernice Moore - Creating The Illusion That Oswald Purchased A Rifle From Klein's

Six days after announcing that Oswald paid $12.78 for the rifle, *the
FBI changed their story* and said that he paid $19.95 for the rifle
with the scope already attached (plus $1.50 for postage).

NOTE: **The author does not know why the FBI changed their story. It
may have been because Klein's bank records did not show a deposit that
matched that amount.

In order to create the illusion that Oswald paid $21.45 for the mail
order rifle from Klein's, the FBI had to "locate" a corresponding
deposit in Klein's account at the First National Bank of Chicago. The
deposit had to be untraceable, which meant that it was made in cash or
with a US postal money order. *The deposit could not be in the form
of a personal check, or money order issued by a private company such
as a bank , Cooks, or American Express.*

According to FBI reports, Bureau agents began tracking the $21.45
money order at 9:00 am on the morning of November 23, *even though
they announced a few hours later that Oswald paid $12.78 for the
rifle*. They ALLEGEDLY spoke with William Waldman, of Klein's
Sporting Goods, then ALLEGEDLY spoke with Lester Gohr, the Assistant
Cashier of the Federal Reserve Bank in Chicago. *These agents may
have interviewed these witnesses, but the information contained in
their reports suggests that they did not.*

At 9:00 am FBI agents Gale Johnson, James Hanlon, and Phillip Wanerus
ALLEGEDLY interviewd Klein's vice-president William Waldman, who
ALLEDGEDLY told the agents that Klein's records showed that a money
order in the amount of $21.45 was deposited to the Klein's account at
the First National Bank of Chicago on March 15, 1963. *It is doubtful
that Waldman gave this information to these agents, because he had not
seen an order from "A. Hidell" on the Klein's microfilm. He did not
know **the price paid for the rifle or the method of payment**. In
addition, Waldman had already given Klein's microfilm to agents Dolan,
Toedt, and Mahan earlier that morning.*

After ALLEDGELY interviewing William Waldman agents Johnson, Hanlon,
and Wanerus ALLEDGELY interviewed Robert Wilmouth, Vice-President of
the First National Bank of Chicago *(on Sunday morning)*. According
to their FBI report, Wilmouth said that Klein's made a deposit in the
amount of $13,827.98 on Friday, March 15, 1963. This deposit
contained hundreds of entries on 5 pages of adding machine tape, with
*two entries* in the amount of $21.45 (the FBI report was wrong; there
was only *one entry for $21.45* in he $13,827 deposit). Wilmouth
ALLEDGELY told the agents that one of the entries represented an
American Express money order and the second deposit item represented a
postal money order, both in the amount of $21.45. *But how would
Wilmouth know if these deposits were made with money orders when
looking at numbers on adding machine tapes? (see Vol 21, p. 706).

Wilmouth, ALLEDGELY told the agents that both deposits were made on
March 15, were processed by his bank on March 16 (Saturday), and were
received by the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago on March 18, 1963.
*But the date on the deposit slip reads "2/13/63-a month before the
rifle was ordered (p. 706, Volume 21).* *And how could Wilmouth
possibly know the date that a money order was deposited at the Federal
Reserve Bank without looking at the cancelled money order, which he
did not have??* Wilmouth ALLEDEDLY told the agents, "Postal money
orders are sent to the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago, which in turn
sends them to a central processing center located in KANSAS CITY,
MISSOURI.

NOTE: **If neither the First National Bank nor the Federal Reserve
Board had copies of a $21.45 money order (No. 2,202,130,462), then
Wilmouth could not possibly have known the date the money order was
received by the Federal Reserve.**

After ALLEDGELY interviewing Robert Wilmouth agents Johnson, Hanlon,
and Wanerus ALLEDGELY interviewed Lester Gohr, the Assistant Cashier
of the Federal Reserve Bank in Chicago-*on Saturday morning*.
According to the FBI report, Gohr said that records of postal money
orders were only kept for 6 months and that *he had no records prior
to May 29, 1963.*

From the information ALLEDGELY obtained from these bankers, we realize
that if they were interviewd on Saturday morning it is highly unlikely
they furnished the information that appears in the FBI reports.
*Also, if they had furnished information about a $21.45 money order to
FBI agents on Saturday morning, then the Bureau would never have
announced that Oswald paid $12.78 for the mail order rifle a few hours
later!* It is far more likely that these FBI reports were fabricated
in order to create the illusion that a $21.45 postal money order was
received by Klein's, deposited to their bank account and then sent to
the Federal Reserve.

We have already learned the $21.45 money order published in the Warren
Volumes was **never deposited into a bank or financial institution.**
*This means the mony order was not deposited to Klein's account at the
First National Bank of Chicago, nor deposited with the Federal Reserve
Bank, nor then returned to the Federal Records Center in Alexandria,
VA. It also means that the information contained in the FBI reports
of Johnson, Hanlon, and Wanerus was fabricated in order to create the
illusion that Oswald purchased a $21.45 money order which was
routinely processed through the federal banking system.

The "Official Story" of how the $21.45 money order was found.

At 1:45 pm on Saturday, November 23 Secret Service agent Edward Z.
Tucker arrived at Klein's Sporting Goods and began interviewing
William Waldman. At first Waldman was reluctant to speak with Agent
Tucker, *because he had been told by the FBI agents not to discuss the
investigation with anyone.* He alledgely told Tucker the price of
Mannlicher-Carcano rifle was $21.45, including postage, and payment
may have been made with a money order. Tucker spoke with Secret
Service agent Griffith, who then called Chicago Postal Inspector Glenn
Knight and requested help in locating a postal money order in the
amount of $21.45.

One of the FBI agents who reviewed the Klein's microfilm, John Toedt,
ALLEDGELY contracted the Post Office in Chicago and also asked for
their assistance in locating a postal money order. Toedt was told to
contract the division headquarters in KANSAS CITY.

After receiving a call from the SS, Chicago Postal Inspector Martin J.
McGee ALLEDGELY telephoned Dallas Postal Inspector Cox, who in turn
contacted Harry Holmes, who stated he thought *he (Holmes) would be
able to find a record of a $21.45 money order in Dallas.*

NOTE: **Most of the background information relating to the $21.45
money order that is found in the reports of the US Post Office
originated with Harry Holmes and, therefore, should be considered
extremely suspect.**

Holmes told the WC, "I passed the information to the men (Dallas
postal employees) who were looking for this money order 'STUB' to show
which would designate, which would show the number of the money order,
and that is the onley way you could find one...within 10 minutes they
called back and said they had a money order in that amount issued on,
I don't know that I show, but it was that money order in an amount
issued at the main post office, which is the same place as this post
office box was at the time, box 2915, and the money order had been
issued **early on the morning of March 12th**, 1963.

NOTE: ** US post offices always kept the end "stub" of all money
orders sold to customers for their records. ***But neither Holmes nor
anyone else produced the "stub" or any postal records to support his
claim that Dallas postal employees in Dallas located the "stub" for
postal money order No. 2,202,130,462.***

**Holmes told the WC the money order was issued ***early on the
morning of March 12th.***, 1963. Yet there is nothing on a postal
mony order that shows the time of day it was sold. The Commission
should have asked Holmes how he knew the money order was issued
"**early on the morning of March 12, 1963.***"

**The only indication the money order was purchased on the morning of
March 12 was the postmark show on the microfilm copy of the envelop
ALLEDGELY mailed to Klein's which read, "10:30 am." The Kleins'
microfilm was never shown to Holmes and therefore Holmes could not
have known that a postal money order was issued ***early on the
morning of March 12, 1963***. The only way Holmes could have known
about the postmark would be if he had previously seen, or handled, the
envelope, or if had been told to say that.**

At 3:30 pm (November 23) Harry Holmes contacted Inspector Lloyd H.
Stephens in Fort Worth and told him that postal money order No.
2,202,130,462, in the amount of $21.45, had been used to pay for the
rifle. Stephens then contacted Inspector Duggan in Washington, DC and
game him the same information.

Postal inspectors at the Federal Postal Money Order in Kansas City
began searching for money order No. 2, 202,130,462, while a Postmaster
General Staff meeting was held in Washington DC. A summary of the
meeting prepared by the SS stated, "The initial request for the
identification and location of the subject US Postal Money order had
come from Postal Inspector Lloyd Stephens, Fort Worth, Texas.....as a
result of a conference between Mr. Donald Duggan, Deputy Chief, Postal
Inspection Service, Washington DC, and Postal Inspection Service at
Fort Worth, Texas, **the original US Postal Money Order would be
furnished to this service (Secret Service).**

At 7:30 pm (CST) Chicago Postal Inspector Glenn Knight advised Secrect
Service Agent Griffith that Postal Inspectors were attempting to
locate the postal money order in Kansas City. **Postal inspectors in
Kansas City had already spent 4 hours looking for postal money order
No. 2,202,130,462, without success.**

The Federal Postal Money Order Center in Kansas City was the same
facility at which 5 other postal money orders were located that had
been purchased by Oswald and used to repay his $435.71 loan from the
Department of State. FBI SA Donald E. Stangel obtained the following
information from the Department of State and the USPS.

He shows a chart with categories Ser # or M.O.; Amount; Issue Date;
Location; and Rec'd by State Dept

The first 5 postal money orders (beginning with series 1,156,417,562)
purchaed by Oswald in Fort Worth and Dallas were returned to the
Federal Postal Money Order Center in Kansas City. The last 3 postal
money ordrs (series 2,202,000,060) were returned to the Federal
Records Center in Alexander, VA. Money order No. 2,202,130.462,
ALLEDGELY purchased by Oswald from the GPO in Dallas, was ALLEDGELY
located at the Federal Records Center in Alexandria, VA on the evening
of November 23, 1963.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_11...

According to the serial numbers on these money orders, the GPO in
Dallas sold approxiamtely 1200 money orders per week (3888 from
November 14, 1962-December 6, 1962; 3475 from Jan. 5, 1963-Jan. 25,
1963). Using 1200 money orders per week as a guide, the serial number
of the money order ALLEDGELY purchased by Oswald on Mar. 12, 1963, was
2,202,130,462 (***118,527 numbers higher***). This serial number
indicates that this money order came from a stack of money orders that
should not have been sold by the GPO in Dallas until late 1964 or
early 1965, if sold in numerical order.

http://www.uspostalbulletins.com/PDF/Vol83_Issue20338_19621129.pdf#searc...

http://www.uspostalbulletins.com/PDF/Vol83_Issue20342_19621227.pdf#searc... Page 2:

NOTE: **The Commission failed to ask the Postal Service when money
orders beginning with 2,202,130 were sent to the Dallas GPO. They
also failed to ask Holmes for the name of the postal employee who
allededly found the "stub" for the $21.45 money order.** While Postal
Inspectors continued to search for the $21.45 money order in Kansas
City, Dallas Postal Inspector/FBI Informatn Harry Holmes advised the
money ordr could be found in Washington DC. Holmes told the
Commission, "This number (2,202,130,462) was transmitted to the Chief
Inspector in Washington, who immediately got the money order center at
Washington to begin a search, which they use IBM equipment to kick out
this money order and sent it oer, ***so they said***, by special
conveyance to the Secret Service, chief of the Secret Service at
Washington now, and it turned out, ***so they said***, to be the
correct money order. **Holmes was the first and only person in Dallas
to know the number of the money order, and the first to suggest the
money order could be located in Washington, DC.**

http://www.uspostalbulletins.com/PDF/Vol83_Issue20338_19621129.pdf#searc... Pages 4, 5:
On the left side of the 2nd image below, there is an explanation of how Oswald came to buy the 60th postal
money order of the new serial number series of yellow-tinted, key-punched at the sales counter, postal money orders.:


Observe the date of the burn directive, near top of right column.:

NOTE: **The WC could not understand why it took nearly ***16 hours***
to locate the money order. Harry Holmes said the delay was caused
because the FBI provided him with incorrect information. Holmes said
the Bureau advised him the amount of the money order was $21.95
instead of $21.45, which caused him to look for a different money
order, ***but not a single person corroborated Holmes' story.***

In Washington, DC, the Deputy Chief of the Postal Inspection Service,
Donald D. Duggan, insturcted Postal Finance Officer ***J. Harold
Marks*** to indicate a search for the money order in Washington, DC,
at 6:30 PM (CST).

At 7:55 PM (CST), Chicago Secret Service Agent Griffith was told that
postal money order No. 2,202,130,462 had been located in Washington,
DC (8:55 EST). Griffith then telephoned agent Mroz, in Kansas City,
and advised him the $21.45 postal money order had been recovered in
Washington.

NOTE: **Apparently the Dallas FBI office was not aware the money
order had been located. At 9:30 PM (CST) the Dallas office sent an
airtel to the Director and SAC's in Chicago and New York. The message
said, "Advised inst. money order culd not be located today, but would
be located *Nov. twenty four next."*

Postal money order No. 2,202,190,462 was ALLEDGELY found at the
Federal Records Center in Alexandria, VA by Robert Jackson, *an
employee of the National Archives.*

NOTE: **This $21.45 money order was never deposited into a financial
institution and therefore could not have been routed through the
banking system and returned to the Federal Records Center in
Alexandria, VA. This money order was probably obtained from the GPO
in Dallas in the early afternoon of November 23, hand-delivered to
Washington, DC, and "planted" at the Federal Records Center in the
early evening.**

**It remains unknown whether Robert Jackson "found" the money order at
the Federal Records Center or it was given to him. There were no
witnesses present and neither Jackson, Marks, Parker, nor anyone from
the National Archives and Records Service were interviewed by the FBI,
Secret Service, or Warren Commission.**

Robert Jackson hand-delivered the $21.45 money order to the home of
**J. Harold Marks** in Washington, DC, who had been told to locate the
money order by Deputy Chief Donald D. Duggan. A summary report
prepared by Secret Service Agent Donald E. Burke on November 26, 1963
provided the details of how the money order was given to the Secret
Service:

"At 10:10 PM (EST-9:10 CST) November 23 1963 SA Parker obtained the
original US Postal Money Order from Mr. Harold Marks at Mr. Marks's
home. At that time Jackson was identified as Robert H. Jackson, 2121
Lee Wood Drive, Alexandria, Virginia, telephone, SO 5-7501, and
employee of the National Archives and Records Service....He informed
SA Parker that he obtained subject original postal money order and
surrendered it to Mr. Marks. Both Jackson and Marks initialed and
dated the original money order, after which it was surrendered to SA
Parker, who in turn initialed and dated the money order.

On the evening of November 23, 1963 the $21.45 postal money order was
initialed and dated by Robert H. Jackson (RHJ), J. Harold Marks (JHM),
and John E. Parker (JEP). A summary report by the SS explained how
copies of the money order were sent to the Dallas office:

"SA Phillips (Secret Service, Dallas) advised, after consultation with
Inspector Kelley of this service, that two photstats be made of
subject postal money order and that these photostates be placed on
Flight #107, Braniff Airlines, departing Washington, DC, at (9:00 am
on November 24, 1963, and arriving at Dallas, Texas at 11:50 A.M.

SA Parker made five photostats of subject US Postal Money Order and
placed them in an envelope. SA Parker surrendered the envelop to
Captain Davis of Flight #107, Braniff Airlines, departing National
Airport, Washington, DC, at 9 AM on November 24, 1963, for delivery to
Special Agent in Charge, US Secret Service at Dallas.

The secret service provided the Dallas Police with a copy of the money
order, which was published among their exhibits in the Warren Volumes,
CE 2003 (DPD file). The Secret Service summary report explained what
happened to the ***original*** $21.45 money order:

"SA (Max D.) Phillips also requested that a chain of custody be
maintained, and that ***original postal money order be retained by the
Washington Field Office safe.***

SA Parker then surrendered the original US Postal Money Order to SAIC
Gaiglein, which he had previously placed in a sealed white envelope
after which SA Parker placed the ***original US Postal Money Order
sealed in this envelope in the WFO (Washington Field Office) safe.***

On the morning of November 24, 1963, Deputy Chief Paterni (Secret
Service, Washington), when informed by SA John H. Grimes, Jr., of this
Secret Service that the Postal Inspection Service, through Postal
Inspector Joseph A. Verant advised that the original US Postal Money
Order ws being sought by the FBI, authorized SA Grimes to surrender
the original Postal Money Order to the Federal Bureau of
Investigation. Immediately thereafter, while SA Grimes was attempting
to make telephone contact with SAIC Glenn Gillies, Washington Field
Office, Federal Bureau of Investigation, SA Leslie B. Chisholm, FBI,
telephonicall contacted the reporting agent concerning this original
US Postal Money Order. SA Chisholm was advised that the postal money
order was available and he stated he or an agent of the FBI would pick
up this money order at the Washington Field Ofice of this Secret
Service).

SA Grimes of this service removed the sealed envelope containing the
original US Postal Money ORder from the WFO safe; removed the original
money order from this envelope; initialed and dated the money order;
made four photostats of it, and surrendered it to SA Chisholm of the
FBI who executed a receipt."

On November 24, SA Chisholm delivered the original money order to
James T. Freeman at the FBI laboratory in Washington, DC. The summary
report continued:

"This paid order was located at the Records Center in Alexandria,
Virginia on the early evening of November 23. It was turned over to a
Secret Service agent in Washington, DC who flew it to Dallas."

NOTE: **The information that a secret service agent hand carried the
original money order to Dallas came from Harry Holmes. As we have
seen, this did not happen and was yet another of Holmes'
fabrications. ***Copies** of the money order were sent to Dallas, but
the original uncashed and undepostited money order was turned over to
the FBI laborator.**

What is the origin of the unused $21.45 money order?

To be considered later.

Taken from Harvey and Lee pgs 461-67
CJ


Part II Klein's Postal Money Order - 1963 Banking System Innovation

Comments

Thank you, David.:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=22434&p=318383
David von Pein - Posted Today, 06:53 PM

More information (from 1962 newspaper accounts) on the punch holes, dug up by Tom Scully,

is available HERE and HERE.

Looks like a nice big defeat for the "LN" side regarding the "punch holes".

Celebrate, CTers! Looks like you won this one.

But, I can't help but repeat....

How in the heck do CTers think the Hidell money order managed to get to the Federal Records Center in Alexandria, Virginia, if it wasn't cashed and then processed by someone?

~big shrug~

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